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Post by Celebes on Dec 15, 2019 13:52:35 GMT -5
In a straight fight, the villains of Redwall have a pretty bad track record. If you take their final score at the end of their respective books, I think team bad guy is on the losing side of a 0 for 22 season. Every time there's a one on one, you can count on the hero winning through the power of fate/friendship/foppishness/frankly better tactics. So what if the villains tried to team up to finally stack the odds in their favor? And which set of villains do you think could actually make an effective team of frenemies? Let's just say it has to be a team of 3. Assuming of course, the final goal is taking Redwall, time travel is possible for bad guys and a third of their hoards, and instead of their actual death scenes, these villains had a classic falling-off-a-really-high-thing-and-into-a-really-thick-fog moment where the hero was never able to see if they died. Because of course, they didn't.
The way I see it, there's a few basic characteristics for an eligible team player. The first is they have to have an iota of humility. This is a hard sell, because almost every villain in the series seems unbearably proud. But to even agree to teaming up, they have to be able to acknowledge they can't win themselves. Tramun Clogg (Martin the Warrior) seems to be a potential candidate for this metric, as despite his many vices he doesn't actually seem as full as himself as say, Tsarmina (Mossflower). Working with a partner in their initial career might help as well, such as Urgan Nagru (Bellmaker) working with his wife.
It would also be helpful to have a reasonably intelligent villain. While leaders of hoards tend to be at least a cut above their followers, it's not always the case. I'm looking at you, Gabool (Mariel of Redwall). It happens often enough that the heroes win through simply playing the game better, rather than brute force. Mathias offed the epitomes Cluny (Redwall) by luring him into a trap with the Joseph Bell, and whenever the heroes are trapped by the ever present marsh frogs they always manage to talk their way out of it. So having at least one clever villain in the trio to try and outwit the heroes would help.
Finally, their hoards have to get along. There are just some villainous warbands that seem more competent than others. Tsarmina's troops in Mossflower seem at least professional enough to be designated as "soldiers", have uniforms, and possess a cadre of at least somewhat savvy officers. They are also used to policing and garrisoning, rather than marching and waging pitched battles. Swartt Sixclaw's (Outcast of Redwall) band on the other paw, is much more mottly, made up of whatever hoard he can amalgamate into his own along the way, and seem to travel for most of their lives. And besides the stoat at the top, there hardly seems to be any captains worth mentioning. These two bands would probably not gel well at all, much like the difficulties between the corsairs and the fortress troops in Martin the Warrior.
So, anyone care to suggest a compatible team? Here is the list of the series main villains!
Damug Warfang (The Long Patrol)
Ungatt Trunn (Lord Brocktree)
Vilu Daskar (Legend of Luke)
Princess Kurda (Triss)
Swartt Sixclaw (Outcast of Redwall)
Vizka Longtooth (Eulalia)
Slagar the Cruel (Mattimeo)
Korvus Skurr (Doomwyte)
Badrang the Tyrant(Martin the Warrior)
Riggu Felis (High Rhulain)
Ferahgo the Assassin (Salamandastron)
Tsarmina Greeneyes (Mossflower)
Gulo the Savage (Rakkety Tam)
Cluny the Scourge (Redwall)
Raga Bol (Loamhedge)
Gabool the Wild (Mariel of Redwall)
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Post by Isaiah on Dec 18, 2019 2:35:59 GMT -5
I challenge anyone to beat my team of:
1. Ungatt Trunn 2. Cluny the Scourge 3. Slagar the Cruel
I took Ungatt Trunn because he seems reasonably intelligent enough to be able to work in a team with others, but I mostly drafted him due to the sheer size and order of his horde. Cluny also has a fairly large and organized horde—maybe not as organized as Ungatt Trunn's, but it definitely has some structure to it—and while he might be the least intelligent of the bunch, he has shown more ingenuity than others in his varied attempts to conquer Redwall. It should also be noted that Cluny is one of the few villains to actually breach Redwall's walls. For a good deal of time, it looked like Cluny might win! He also seems to be no slouch when it comes to paw-to-paw fighting, even if bells happen to be his bane. Ungatt Trunn also successfully conquered Salamandastron, so I feel pretty content drafting two villains with such successful track records in infiltrating strongholds.
Finally, I think Slagar is the perfect villain to round this team out because, well, I think he's the perfect villain to round any team out. Overall, I think Slagar is perhaps one of the most formidable villains in the entire series. He never sets his sights on Redwall itself of course, but in a way, his ambitions are even higher. Through outsmarting the good guys—something that rarely happens in the series—Slagar is able to successfully snatch multiple children from within the walls. Through Mattimeo, Slagar shows the most brains out of anyone on the list, outwitting his pursuers at seemingly every turn.
I think in this fantasy team, Slagar would act as the ultimate brains, able to actually outwit the Redwallers in a fullscale attack. Cluny and Ungatt would contribute their absolutely massive yet organized hordes, while still being intelligent enough leaders and capable enough fighters to carry out Slagar's plans.
I rather think one would need a solid team of protagonists to beat this team of villains.
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Post by Celebes on Dec 20, 2019 11:11:14 GMT -5
Hmm, interesting choices. Slagar and Cluny definitely have the advantage of being from the same time, so they have all the same protagonists to hate. But I can't help feel that it might be a TEENSY bit awkward considering that Cluny off'd Slagar's mother. I mean, the fox says he didn't really care for her that much, but still. There had to be a bare minimum of familial kinship.
I think the power trio would still have Cluny on it for the reasons you mentioned, but I think Ironbeak would be the better villain from Mattimeo. He did manage to take over the majority of the Abbey and its grounds, only missing out on Cavern Hole. Having a force that can negate Redwall's great advantage, it's red walls, would be invaluable.
With the main attack pretty well covered from the land and the air, I think that the last thing the team needs is a proper garrison force. What's the point of conquering Redwall if you can't exploit it? Cluny and Ironbeak seem to have forces much more oriented towards conquest and movement, not biting and holding. So I think either the fortress forces of Tsarmina or Badrang would be helpful. And since the former's forces have more experience holding an entire countryside in semi-serfdom, wheras the Marshank forces are only experienced in whipping a few slaves inside a compound, I think Tsarmina would be a better choice.
And since Ironbeak will be in the air most the time, that is one less constant annoyance to this trio of strong personalities!
1. Cluny 2. Ironbeak 3. Tsarmina
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Post by Isaiah on Dec 21, 2019 22:19:47 GMT -5
I think Cluny and Slagar are intelligent enough to reconcile their differences to work together towards a common enemy. Cluny has the man power; Slagar as the schemes.
The inclusion of Ironbeak is one I hadn't considered. Indeed, being able to circumvent the walls entirely does seem a very powerful asset. How about this, to assuage any doubts about the potential alliance between Slagar and Cluny, I will simply replace Cluny.
My new team is as follows:
1. Ungatt Trunn 2. Ironbeak 3. Slagar
I find the odds of Tsarmina working with other warlords slim. After all, she poisoned her own father and locked her own brother in the dungeon! I foresee Cluny and Tsarmina killing each other before Redwall ever comes into the picture.
I also have trouble not including Ungatt Trunn in every team, simply for the size of his horde. It's less about the leader himself, and more just the numbers of seemingly organized vermin he has under his control. The threats Salamandastron and Redwall face seem to be on different scales, and pitting a Salamandastron foe against Redwall seems almost unfair. I don't think Ungatt Trunn would have to much trouble on his own simply due to sheer numbers. Perhaps I'm overestimating what numbers can do? Or the size of his horde?
Either way, I'm pretty happy with this iteration of my team. I've got numbers, wings, and brains.
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