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Post by Isaiah on Aug 22, 2018 13:02:05 GMT -5
Now you're getting it! This may have to be settled by a fight to the death.
In regards to Triss, I think we're just interpreting the story Jacques was trying to tell with her differently. With her arc, I don't think more trying encounters would have changed much. This is largely because her story isn't about proving herself and becoming a warrior. She's already proven herself by escaping from Riftgard and the harrowing sequence afterwards. Seriously, the events up until the gang reach Peace Island are surprisingly dark for a Redwall book. Welfo seems on the verge of death and the whole group is dying of dehydration/starvation for a while there. With such an intense beginning, I don't know if their story needed more opportunities for intense adversity.
Granted, a standard hero's tale structure probably would have had more encounters like that, but I just don't see the story of Triss as one about her becoming the best Swordmaid or a squirrel who truly has grit. She's already proven those things, or they're a given. That may be somewhat unsatisfying, but I think Jacques gave them up to tell a more emotionally driven arc. Her arc is more about recovering from being a slave and her intense experiences. Triss has already been under extreme stress since the very beginning of the story, and the book is about how she comes to terms with that and discovers how to live a "normal" life.
That shrew scene plays a pivotal part in this arc and the overall theme of the story.
I'll admit the execution is lacking in some parts, especially Drufo could have been further developed, as he is the main motivator for Triss wanting to escape in the first place. However, I do like the above scene, and I think it's an emotionally truthful way to show Triss acclimating to a new life.
As a side note: How would people feel about reading Redwall next? We've been jumping around a lot and it might be interesting to go back to some earlier books. Or if you have different ideas, throw them out there!
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Post by Celebes on Aug 23, 2018 0:12:20 GMT -5
Death you say? Well, so long as I can leave a riddle behind before I go. Choose your weapon, sah! I think this is probably the crux of our differing opinions on Triss the character. The problem for me was that the book seemed to be a bit too focused on that heroic warrior skill, to the detriment of others. There was nothing that she did that really proved she had that skill from the start, either explicitly in the story or implicitly in her background. To me there is a difference between Martin's implied skill in Martin the Warrior based off the early reveal of his fighting experience off the coast. Its a believable point made early on that sets the foundation of why he is heroic. But something about Triss' foreordination just doesn't work for me, where she had a dream about Martin, and then proceeds to have a gourmet tour courtesy of Redwall's finest tribes, all while Skipper XXIV is having dreams about her being a savior with a sowrd. She is brave, she is loyal, and she is hardy, but so are most woodlanders. And when she does finally get to Redwall at the end of the book, the only explanation offered for her sudden and necessary sword skills was that she had watched Kurda practice, and that her father was good with swords. I know that the blessing of Martin is the great heroic steroid, but something about the explanation just seemed too little, too late. I do appreciate her redemption/forgiveness/awakening storyline, but I feel that the warrior tag could have been left out. Having to justify that attribute took a little too much time away from her pursuit of happiness story for me. If she was a secondary character, or if there was one less other plotline that took away from her screentime, I think I would have been able to concentrate more on her emotional story. Switching gears here, this is more of general discussion question related to our recent reads of Taggerung and Triss, what are some thoughts on the general lack of mice in the later books? There are still mice of course, but, proportionally speaking, they are in no where near the numbers that they showed up in some of the first books. This is especially true with the protagonists of the stories. The first four books all had original mice protagonists: Matthias, Martin, Mattimeo, and Mariel. But the later books in the series seem to heavily rely on other species to fill the main character roster, particularly otters and squirrels. I have two points of view on this. On the one paw, I like otters and squirrels. And, according to a recent poll, so does 90% of the forum. These basically upgraded mice species have their own unique natural talents that allow for creative new obstacles to be overcome, which allows for compelling events that wouldn't be as feasible with landbound mice. On the other paw, part of the lesson of Redwall to me is the story of a little guy, or even an everyman, who is able to rise above his station and do something extraordinary. A good David and Goliath underdog story. This is something a mouse plays well, in both Redwall and countless other media. But having a butch otter or a spry squirrel seems to undermine that theme somewhat. Everyone could stand up to their fears if they were as tall as Deyna. Their victories, if unfairly, just seem a tad less rewarding, because they started with so many assets that the lowly mouse didn't have. I would definitely be a fan of that. It would be interesting to compare the original to the other later entries we have been reading. |
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Post by Isaiah on Sept 2, 2018 0:25:30 GMT -5
I've never been one to value plot in a story. That may seem a ridiculous statement, as plot is a very large part of many great stories. However, I think it's possible to have a great story with only a mediocre plot. That's not to say plot isn't important, or a great one doesn't make for a great story, just that I've always placed it a tier below characters and their individual arcs. While I enjoy a meticulously plotted and thought-out story, my favorite stories are those who succeed in well developed characters, regardless of other factors. My favorite TV show of all time is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a show rather (in)famous for its cheesy and mediocre plots but fantastic characters and dialogue.
I think this is potentially the crux of where our different perspectives on Triss' character come from. I'm not trying to say Triss or the characters in the book are amazingly developed characters, but I at least appreciated Triss' emotional arc enough for the character to land in the positives for me. Most importantly, the whole dealio with her sword skills didn't bother me because it read as a plot element to me. Sure, the way it was dealt with was clumsy, but I didn't feel it affected the point of the character, whose arc was not about how she got her sword skills. So, clumsy plot element? Yea, but I thought her character arc was fairly clean.
You might disagree on whether that's really a plot element or think it actually is integral to her character. Possibly, you just don't think her arc is enough to constitute being the main character of the book. All that's valid, just my hypothesis on why are perspectives may not align/an explanation on how I approach media.
One reason is probably just variety. As you said, we had a lot of mice protagonists in the beginning of the series, so as the number of books in the series crept up to the teens it was refreshing to see other species in the protagonist role. We've even got hedgehogs and other less popular beasts in a few of the books. It also allows for Jacques to tell different types of stories. The "everyman" type story works great with mice, but imagine the plot of Taggerung with a mouse playing Deyna. It could maybe work, but it wouldn't make much sense nor be as impactful.
While some of it may just be a popularity contest, I do think the variety in animals as protagonists helps break up certain species stereotypes as well as tell a variety of different stories.
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Post by Isaiah on Sept 30, 2018 13:52:37 GMT -5
The DAB book club is reading Redwall
Discussion will begin October 21st.
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Post by Isaiah on Mar 23, 2019 22:22:22 GMT -5
Hi. Abusing my position of power to reboot this with a new book.
The DAB book club is reading Lord Brocktree
Discussion will begin April 15th.
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Post by Celebes on Jul 18, 2019 20:59:23 GMT -5
Well, two postless discussions have unfortunately come and gone, and I'm just as guilty as any for not contributing. Which is a shame, because the book discussions we have on here are probably one of my favorite things about this site, and something that's unsurprisingly difficult to find elsewhere. I think the big obstacle that led to these last two discussions coming-and-going is the perpetual threat of the busyness bug, which always lowers the priority of effort allocated to this site. So what can we do?
Maybe we can have a lite discussion in between the bigger book reads? I'm sure most of us on here have read most of the books at some point, so maybe it isn't required we go back and read a whole book again just to have a conversation about it. There are plenty of well-detailed summaries posted on various fandom pages, and a ten minute brush up with one of those may be enough to jog some memories. I think that if we all agreed on a book, especially one of the classics, we could then easily set aside a week for everyone to review. Then we could discuss the following week. That way there is plenty of time for everyone to get involved who wants to, without the possible ten hour time commitment before hand.
Thoughts?
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Post by Isaiah on Dec 23, 2019 16:53:12 GMT -5
Hi! Do we want to stick with our previous format of "everyone has a 3-4 weeks to read the book," then discuss? Or do we want to try something a little different? We could break the book up into the "books" that Brian Jacques designates as acts within each book, or we could try what Celebes' mentions in the above post.
How does everyone feel about the Sable Quean, as well?
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Post by Isaiah on Jan 18, 2020 19:39:12 GMT -5
We're reading the Sable Quean! Discussion starts Februrary 10th.  |
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Well, they're in the kitchen now so if you want you can have him end up there maybe? Or near them?
2024 can be the year of your return 